Since the assault brigades have deployed to put fire on this, I’m going to throw my two cents in.
Here is the deal. Gordon Van Gelder, Editor and Publisher of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, will be setting up an online writer’s workshop. It is a pay to play system and the professional moderator will be none other than former Asimov’s Editor and award winning science fiction writer, Gardner Dozois. Membership is limited to 100 members.
The attack pattern, near as I can suss out, is that perhaps it is a bit unethical for a magazine to run such a workshop. The other issue is that there there might be a two tiered payment system for stories (which is nonsense, an unspoken multi tier system already exists as the established writer is getting far more than my five cents a word for their story). Lastly, some folks have an axe to grind both with Gardner Dozois and Gordon Van Gelder, namely the self appointed politically correct fascists of the science fiction and fantasy community. It wasn’t too long ago that Gardner was all but accused of being a racist, sexist editor (utter nonsense).
So I guess the plan is to kill the workshop by bad mouthing it enough so that people will not participate.
Let me punch some holes in this right now.
First and foremost, as a writer, I’d definitely pay good money to get Gardner’s advice on a story. His advice, in fact, is more valuable than publication in Gordon’s magazine, though I would not turn that down either. Over the course of my career, when Gardner was still an editor at Asimov’s Science Fiction Magazine, his advice on their Forum and in the personal responses he sent me expedited the evolutionary process for me. I sorely miss having that voice in my rejection pile. I think in many ways that Gardner is probably the go to Writer (note that I did not say Editor) who can tell you what is wrong with your story.
Second, writers pay for workshops all the time. We pay to take creative writing classes at college such as the one my peer, friend and mentor, Terri Lowry, teaches. We pay to take them in brick and mortar classrooms and we pay to take them online (my plan for this fall with Terri). We pay good money not only to get the instructor’s advice but also that of our peers in the class. Some of the more fiscally able in the SF community pay a great deal of money to attend workshops such as Clarion or the Science Fiction Workshop held out at the University of Kansas Center for the Study of Science Fiction. Many pay because their favorite author will be there. More than a few, I suspect, probably pay for the networking opportunities (nothing wrong with that).
How, pray tell, is Gordon’s model any different?
The fact of the matter is that it isn’t any different. Editors in science fiction have guided writers with their rejections and their feedback since the magazines first hit the stands in the early part of the 20th Century. The only difference is that the vector of dissemination has changed.
All other concerns voiced by others in the greater science fiction and fantasy writing community, frankly, smack of the standard dose of personal vendettas against two men who do not deserve such treatment.
Respects,
Steven Francis Murphy
Author of The Limb Knitter and Tearing Down Tuesday
North Kansas City, Missouri
11 comments
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July 3, 2009 at 12:27 am
chazfh
seems like a reasonable idea to me, all this politics amazes me but then I’ve seen it before at Uni.
usual case of some people needing to get a life.
In fact i’d be up for it if it wasn’t for this apartment in Sydney coming on line in a couple of weeks.
Oh well…
July 3, 2009 at 12:54 am
Birmo
As an outsider allow me to piss inside the tent.
Attacking this sort of thing is crazy.
These classes happen all the time. It’s part of the business, part of the culture. One generation of writers handing on skills to the next.
Sometimes that informal. Sometimes it’s business.
But it is part of the culture.
Crazy talk.
Just fucking crazy.
So best ignored.
July 3, 2009 at 1:22 am
sfmurphy1971
Chaz, the people in question have a hard on for Gordon Van Gelder and Gardner Dozois. The two editors are seen as part of the problem (what problem, pray tell? You name it, someone will blame them for it) and not part of the solution.
These twits consider themselves to be part of the solution. Personally, I think they are the problem, the main reason why so much of science fiction and fantasy sucks these days.
There is no shortage of crazy in the American science fiction and fantasy community, Birmo. That said, I felt I should do something.
And now that I have done it, I’ll follow your advice.
Respects,
Murph
On the Outer Marches
July 3, 2009 at 8:03 am
Shweta Narayan
If you really want to know, the issue some people have is that it sounds like a pay-to-get-into-F&SF-by-the-back-door scheme.
And that just sounds sleazy.
It quite probably isn’t what is intended, but it’s also neither normal nor hugely confidence-inspiring.
*shrug*
July 3, 2009 at 11:44 am
Tom
You haven’t been paying attention. The complaint is not that a magazine is running a paid workshop, it’s that it’s doing so *and suggesting that participants in the workshop will be favoured for publication in the magazine*. I understand that van Gelder explicitly says that this will be the case in the editorial in F&SF where he announced the workshop, but I haven’t read it myself, so I can’t be sure.
Effectively, this means that if you give the magazine money, they will give you more chance of being published – that you can buy publication. I’d call that pretty poor behaviour.
July 3, 2009 at 12:28 pm
sfmurphy1971
Shweta, please. If that is the case then everytime someone like Gardner shows up at Clarion or some other workshop then you are paying a fee with the hopes of gaining preferred access. Or Gordon, or one of the other editors.
Furthermore, there is already a multi-tier payment system. A pro rate author does not get the base pay that a new writer does. And frankly, if the system were to change to where it was more flexible still (I find the five cents a word standard to be utter nonsense) then I’d have no problem with it.
Tom, I have been paying attention. You’re telling me this is somehow different from people who go to conventions and workshops in order to network and get some preferred treatment that way?
I think you didn’t read the editoral clearly enough. All the workshop gives you is a possibility to get Gardner’s recommendation.
Now, speaking as someone who HAD Gardner’s recommendation for a story purchase back in 2004 when his successor took over Asimov’s, I can tell you that the recommendation is NO GUARANTEE of anything.
Finally, a workshopped piece with Gardner’s assistance may not get you into Gordon’s magazine, but it may well garner a story sale somewhere else.
Which means we’re back to personal vendettas, which is what this is really all about. The long knives are out for Gardner and Gordon yet again.
It is long since past time for someone to say enough is enough.
Murph
On the Outer Marches
July 3, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Tom
Mr Murphy, it is different to other networking, because you have to pay the editor of the magazine for the privilege of doing it!
If, as you assert, all the workshop gives you (besides the benefit of the workshopping itself) is the chance to get Dozois’s imprimatur if your work is good enough, then I absolutely agree that there isn’t a problem here. The reason that some people are upset is that they have the impression that there’s more to it than that – it’s from the fact that you don’t seem to appreciate this that I drew the conclusion that you hadn’t been paying attention.
Clearly, what matters is whether participating in the workshop does convey an intrinsic advantage. Whining about poor old Gordon and Gardner being subjected to a pogrom by “politically correct fascists” (or, as I prefer to call them “people who aren’t prepared to put up with racism and sexism”), or some other gang of ill-defined villains with personal grudges does not address this.
Of course, despite what anyone may or may not have said, we won’t really know if this is the case until the workshop has happened, and stories from it have had a chance to be picked up by the magazine. If any of them are, be prepared for a reissue of this debate – director’s cut extended edition!
July 4, 2009 at 3:47 am
David Rass
All this nonsense doesn’t matter. Workshop writers have been filling the coffers for years (or trying to get the “in”), and now desperate measures must be taken to keep the cookie jar filled.
Besides, none of this matters. There’s a new professional outlet with a more ethical statement and better quality stories coming soon. Better advertising. And from the most unlikeliest of sources.
These two gents you speak of are doomed.
July 4, 2009 at 4:55 pm
sfmurphy1971
David, what professional outlet? Some online market besides Baen, Apex or IGMS? What market would that be? Because from a consumer point of view, most of what is left marketwise in the US sucks ass. I wouldn’t give them a red cent of my money.
As for Gardner and Gordon, I doubt very much that they are doomed. If they were doomed then why would so much effort be expended on putting them into the ground?
Tom, the editor of the magazine runs the workshop so, uh, why wouldn’t I pay him? Is he supposed to run this workshop as a charity? Or is he supposed to donate his money to some other workshop that he doesn’t have any direct control over?
We’re splitting hairs. I don’t see the difference at all.
I think it is just another cycle of a personal vendetta some in the American Science Fiction and Fantasy community have against these two.
Murph
On the Outer Marches
July 5, 2009 at 5:36 am
Brad R. Torgersen
Assuming the workshop fee is not terribly steep, I could buy into the idea that the workshop falls under the rubric of Continuing Education — which is about the only expense permisable under the, “Money always flows to the writer,” model that most pros espouse.
Given the fact that I am batting 0.000 with F&SF and Dozois, since 1995, I’d be genuinely curious to have any kind of feedback that might clue me in as to what Dozois/F&SF are looking for.
Again, assuming the fee was not huge.
Huge = hundred(s) of dollars.
July 5, 2009 at 2:18 pm
sfmurphy1971
Brad, I was pretty lucky with Gardner and I suppose since he is no longer editor at Asimov’s, I can talk about that luck. I started getting personal rejects within a year of regular submissions. I got full letters starting in 2003 and by 2004 I had gotten my first rewrite request.
Things turned out differently, Gardner retired and his replacement (whom I have no use for, for a lot of reasons besides the rejection) didn’t buy it.
I value his advice and I’d pay for it. How much? Well, I suppose like you I’d need to see a dollar sign.
Thanks for dropping by, Brad.
Respects,
Murph
On the Outer Marches